Onward Christian Soldiers!

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Re: Onward Christian Soldiers!

Postby frank - up in grand blanc » Fri Jun 06, 2014 11:58 am

middle aged female wrote:
frank - up in grand blanc wrote:
doesn't change the facts about what the unwed mothers, their children and other orphans went through in the Irish Magdelane system and other church run orphanages and homes.


Yeah, but living beings have a history of being very tough on children of questionable paternity. Creating a bogeyman of a bad old partriarchial church to explain what is clearly an evil is not necessary because we, people, are inclined to flush away children who are not our own. Richard Dawkins lays out the argument for a biological precedent for slaughtering some among the "innocent." The upshot of the hypothesis is that one should not squander resources in support of children who do not carry one's genes. Shit, even lions will kill the cubs of other males when then come upon a new family group. I won't even say that there's a tyranny of patriarchy here because womenkind buy into regimine.

I expect better of my co-religionists as illustrated in the original story, but in light of the willingness of greater society to figuratively shit on these women and children I will ask: DID the order of nuns do worse by these young women and children?

Max's question about the contemporaries failing to shout to the rafters that an abomination was afoot strikes a chord: what about the present era's legal protection of abortion? How will the future regard the today's protection of the practice as well as the prioritization of privacy over incubating life? Myself, I understand and can argue both sides of the abortion issue, but as society changes (as it does; change is constant) will future generations judge us as being enlightened or as inheritors of the Bon Secor order's mantle of evil? "We do the best that we can," is the answer for today, and my read of western society is that as a general rule this is and has been true from at least the time of high Greek civilization. Periodic but temporary regressions aside, western society has liberalized in thought and in practice, and as such I read the past as being darker than the present and at the same time better than what it followed. Guess that I'm saying that I expect that our grandchildren will one day be talking shit about us and 2014 because of any number of sins omission.

The nuns may not have done worse by these girls and their children, but that shouldn't be the question. The question should be "Why didn't the nuns do better for these people? Shouldn't they have done, being designated servants of Christ?"


I agreee. No question at all.
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Re: Onward Christian Soldiers!

Postby Amadeus » Fri Jun 06, 2014 12:05 pm

middle aged female wrote:The nuns may not have done worse by these girls and their children, but that shouldn't be the question. The question should be "Why didn't the nuns do better for these people? Shouldn't they have done, being designated servants of Christ?"


Why shouldn't that be the question? Are we limited to only one question?

"Better than what" needs to be added to your question, because otherwise we leave a huge, gaping hole of sanctimony and self-righteousness to fall into. We can get outraged about what the other person did or didn't do without looking to see what our own current failings are, not only personally but society-wide.
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Re: Onward Christian Soldiers!

Postby middle aged female » Fri Jun 06, 2014 12:08 pm

Amadeus wrote:
middle aged female wrote:The nuns may not have done worse by these girls and their children, but that shouldn't be the question. The question should be "Why didn't the nuns do better for these people? Shouldn't they have done, being designated servants of Christ?"


Why shouldn't that be the question? Are we limited to only one question?

"Better than what" needs to be added to your question, because otherwise we leave a huge, gaping hole of sanctimony and self-righteousness to fall into. We can get outraged about what the other person did or didn't do without looking to see what our own current failings are, not only personally but society-wide.

Better than shaming them, starving and making slaves of them. If they shouldn't have done better than that, then they shouldn't have done anything.
I wasn't taught to believe that nuns and priests were just another run of the mill person; I was taught that they were representatives of Christ on Earth, so, yes, I do expect them to be better than the rest of us. Unfortunately, through most of history, they haven't been. The Vatican has often been corrupt with married Popes with illegitimate children whom they elevated to power and wealth; then there was the Spanish Inquisition, a lovely period in the history of the Church. More recently, we've had the child abusing priests all over the world, but most particularly in the United States.
I'm sorry if you don't agree with me questioning all of these things about the clergy and the nuns, but I don't agree they should be given a pass because what they have done in some instances is no worse than what the laity does.
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Re: Onward Christian Soldiers!

Postby frank - up in grand blanc » Fri Jun 06, 2014 12:19 pm

middle aged female wrote:
Amadeus wrote:
middle aged female wrote:The nuns may not have done worse by these girls and their children, but that shouldn't be the question. The question should be "Why didn't the nuns do better for these people? Shouldn't they have done, being designated servants of Christ?"


Why shouldn't that be the question? Are we limited to only one question?

"Better than what" needs to be added to your question, because otherwise we leave a huge, gaping hole of sanctimony and self-righteousness to fall into. We can get outraged about what the other person did or didn't do without looking to see what our own current failings are, not only personally but society-wide.

Better than shaming them, starving and making slaves of them. If they shouldn't have done better than that, then they shouldn't have done anything.

Did they: shame, starve and enslave? We haven't yet established that conditions with the nuns differed from those that would have been experienced elsewhere in contemporary general society let alone were worse.
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Re: Onward Christian Soldiers!

Postby middle aged female » Fri Jun 06, 2014 12:22 pm

frank - up in grand blanc wrote:
middle aged female wrote:
Amadeus wrote:
middle aged female wrote:The nuns may not have done worse by these girls and their children, but that shouldn't be the question. The question should be "Why didn't the nuns do better for these people? Shouldn't they have done, being designated servants of Christ?"


Why shouldn't that be the question? Are we limited to only one question?

"Better than what" needs to be added to your question, because otherwise we leave a huge, gaping hole of sanctimony and self-righteousness to fall into. We can get outraged about what the other person did or didn't do without looking to see what our own current failings are, not only personally but society-wide.

Better than shaming them, starving and making slaves of them. If they shouldn't have done better than that, then they shouldn't have done anything.

Did they: shame, starve and enslave? We haven't yet established that conditions with the nuns differed from those that would have been experienced elsewhere in contemporary general society let alone were worse.

My point is, they aren't general society; they are supposed to set an example. The example they set was to treat these women and children as lesser than the rest of society.
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Re: Onward Christian Soldiers!

Postby frank - up in grand blanc » Fri Jun 06, 2014 12:26 pm

middle aged female wrote:
frank - up in grand blanc wrote:
middle aged female wrote:
Amadeus wrote:
middle aged female wrote:The nuns may not have done worse by these girls and their children, but that shouldn't be the question. The question should be "Why didn't the nuns do better for these people? Shouldn't they have done, being designated servants of Christ?"


Why shouldn't that be the question? Are we limited to only one question?

"Better than what" needs to be added to your question, because otherwise we leave a huge, gaping hole of sanctimony and self-righteousness to fall into. We can get outraged about what the other person did or didn't do without looking to see what our own current failings are, not only personally but society-wide.

Better than shaming them, starving and making slaves of them. If they shouldn't have done better than that, then they shouldn't have done anything.

Did they: shame, starve and enslave? We haven't yet established that conditions with the nuns differed from those that would have been experienced elsewhere in contemporary general society let alone were worse.

My point is, they aren't general society; they are supposed to set an example. The example they set was to treat these women and children as lesser than the rest of society.

OK, we agree on that level. But with a very low bar even this shitty by-today's-standards treatment could have been head and shoulders above all else. My earlier reference to contemporary abortion policy was meant to raise the matter of relativity and the fact that we, today, both religious and non-, are likely in for a flaming from future generations because of any number of failings that we today simply cannot see.
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Re: Onward Christian Soldiers!

Postby middle aged female » Fri Jun 06, 2014 12:34 pm

frank - up in grand blanc wrote:
middle aged female wrote:
frank - up in grand blanc wrote:
middle aged female wrote:
Amadeus wrote:
middle aged female wrote:The nuns may not have done worse by these girls and their children, but that shouldn't be the question. The question should be "Why didn't the nuns do better for these people? Shouldn't they have done, being designated servants of Christ?"


Why shouldn't that be the question? Are we limited to only one question?

"Better than what" needs to be added to your question, because otherwise we leave a huge, gaping hole of sanctimony and self-righteousness to fall into. We can get outraged about what the other person did or didn't do without looking to see what our own current failings are, not only personally but society-wide.

Better than shaming them, starving and making slaves of them. If they shouldn't have done better than that, then they shouldn't have done anything.

Did they: shame, starve and enslave? We haven't yet established that conditions with the nuns differed from those that would have been experienced elsewhere in contemporary general society let alone were worse.

My point is, they aren't general society; they are supposed to set an example. The example they set was to treat these women and children as lesser than the rest of society.

OK, we agree on that level. But with a very low bar even this shitty by-today's-standards treatment could have been head and shoulders above all else. My earlier reference to contemporary abortion policy was meant to raise the matter of relativity and the fact that we, today, both religious and non-, are likely in for a flaming from future generations because of any number of failings that we today simply cannot see.

But just because they're being judged by today's standards doesn't mean what they did was right then. We judge slavery by what we feel about it today, but does that make it okay that they kept slaves 200 yrs ago?
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Re: Onward Christian Soldiers!

Postby frank - up in grand blanc » Fri Jun 06, 2014 2:22 pm

middle aged female wrote:But just because they're being judged by today's standards doesn't mean what they did was right then. We judge slavery by what we feel about it today, but does that make it okay that they kept slaves 200 yrs ago?


No, not OK, of course not. But what about the efforts to end slavery? Pretty tepid, and if you reference Abraham Lincoln's writings on the matter you might conclude that the abolitionist crowd itself even was racist (something along the lines of slavery actually encouraging miscegenation; to wit, end slavery and thereby limit cross-race breeding). My point is that without a better understanding of social conditions of the time even progressives might be categorized as awful. If we want to argue whether entire eras and all within were regretable then, I feel, that's a different discussion.
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Re: Onward Christian Soldiers!

Postby middle aged female » Fri Jun 06, 2014 2:31 pm

frank - up in grand blanc wrote:
middle aged female wrote:But just because they're being judged by today's standards doesn't mean what they did was right then. We judge slavery by what we feel about it today, but does that make it okay that they kept slaves 200 yrs ago?


No, not OK, of course not. But what about the efforts to end slavery? Pretty tepid, and if you reference Abraham Lincoln's writings on the matter you might conclude that the abolitionist crowd itself even was racist (something along the lines of slavery actually encouraging miscegenation; to wit, end slavery and thereby limit cross-race breeding). My point is that without a better understanding of social conditions of the time even progressives might be categorized as awful. If we want to argue whether entire eras and all within were regretable then, I feel, that's a different discussion.

I'm not saying there has never been a good, charitable, loving nun; I just find it more than puzzling how people who are supposed to preach the love of Christ can sometimes be so cruel.
And, you're right, even Lincoln wasn't blameless when it came to the slavery issue. If memory serves me, he was for setting up a colony in Africa and sending freed slaves "home".
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Re: Onward Christian Soldiers!

Postby Mad Max » Sun Jun 08, 2014 8:21 pm

frank - up in grand blanc wrote:
doesn't change the facts about what the unwed mothers, their children and other orphans went through in the Irish Magdelane system and other church run orphanages and homes.


Yeah, but living beings have a history of being very tough on children of questionable paternity. Creating a bogeyman of a bad old partriarchial church to explain what is clearly an evil is not necessary because we, people, are inclined to flush away children who are not our own. Richard Dawkins lays out the argument for a biological precedent for slaughtering some among the "innocent." The upshot of the hypothesis is that one should not squander resources in support of children who do not carry one's genes. Shit, even lions will kill the cubs of other males when then come upon a new family group. I won't even say that there's a tyranny of patriarchy here because womenkind buy into regimine.

I expect better of my co-religionists as illustrated in the original story, but in light of the willingness of greater society to figuratively shit on these women and children I will ask: DID the order of nuns do worse by these young women and children?

Max's question about the contemporaries failing to shout to the rafters that an abomination was afoot strikes a chord: what about the present era's legal protection of abortion? How will the future regard the today's protection of the practice as well as the prioritization of privacy over incubating life? Myself, I understand and can argue both sides of the abortion issue, but as society changes (as it does; change is constant) will future generations judge us as being enlightened or as inheritors of the Bon Secor order's mantle of evil? "We do the best that we can," is the answer for today, and my read of western society is that as a general rule this is and has been true from at least the time of high Greek civilization. Periodic but temporary regressions aside, western society has liberalized in thought and in practice, and as such I read the past as being darker than the present and at the same time better than what it followed. Guess that I'm saying that I expect that our grandchildren will one day be talking shit about us and 2014 because of any number of sins omission.



We're not going to settle the abortion question here, but I would think that a baby breathing in your arms would invoke different emotions than something more abstract. They didn't have sonograms back then, but I think you see what I'm getting at.

As to Amadeus' reference to that over the top abortionist (the one from Philadelphia, IIRC), I'm not sure that the comparison is apt. The guy wasn't steeped in the gospel, and he had turned abortion it into a money making assembly line. Also, I'm pretty sure he's doing jail time. As I'm sure you've guessed, I'm not the religious type, but I still find the "red letters" portions of the gospels to an inspiring call to quality of life issues.

Then again, maybe our own country shares some blame. During that period our immigration laws were the most isolationist they had ever been. A lot of childless couples here would have made the trip for an unwanted white baby that they could have either kept in the catholic faith, or converted to protestantism.
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Re: Onward Christian Soldiers!

Postby frank - up in grand blanc » Mon Jun 09, 2014 7:50 am

^ my point re: abortion is that we today may be regarded in the future with the same sort of revulsion inspired by the nuns & "home" because the standard for justice and the bar for decency are subjectively defined. I used abortion as my example because the extremes of the issue are well known, but we could just as easily become classified as neanderthals for keeping pets, eating meat, failing to recycle, and any number of other things which today are regarded as normal. Don't get me wrong, I all but weep for those women and children, but I also recognize that humanity's journey up from chaos has been long and I'm certain that we will progress even further. "Progress: being a credit to the race as well as the scourge that will be used to metaphorically whip the present era.
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Re: Onward Christian Soldiers!

Postby Amadeus » Mon Jun 09, 2014 1:07 pm

And here's an atheist's take on the story of the Tuam home (he also touches on the Magdalene laundries):

THE TUAM TANK: ANOTHER MYTH ABOUT EVIL IRELAND
http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/ar ... 5XmoHJdV8G


And his original piece about the Magdalene laundries:

Catholic-bashers have embellished the truth about abuse in Catholic institutions. It's time to put the record straight
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/brend ... -straight/
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Re: Onward Christian Soldiers!

Postby thunderstruck » Tue Jun 10, 2014 12:39 am

Amadeus wrote:And here's an atheist's take on the story of the Tuam home (he also touches on the Magdalene laundries):

THE TUAM TANK: ANOTHER MYTH ABOUT EVIL IRELAND
http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/ar ... 5XmoHJdV8G


And his original piece about the Magdalene laundries:

Catholic-bashers have embellished the truth about abuse in Catholic institutions. It's time to put the record straight
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/brend ... -straight/

The first article you linked to (http://carolinefarrow.com/2014/06/04/tu ... the-earth/) ought to read from stem to stern by those commenting on this topic. It's clear that society at that time wasn't interested in providing either funds or social acceptance to illegitimate children or their mothers. Life in Ireland at that time was no picnic for able-bodied adults either. I really think we shortchange our analysis of historical happenings when we view them through our modern, prosperous, and un-self-critical lens.

I agree with Frank. A few generations down the line we'll be looked upon as primitively unthinking in terms of what we considered acceptable behavior. Casual acceptance of abortion may be viewed as worse than enslavement, but the justification will be that it's just how it was.
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Re: Onward Christian Soldiers!

Postby Mad Max » Thu Jun 12, 2014 12:23 am

frank - up in grand blanc wrote:^ my point re: abortion is that we today may be regarded in the future with the same sort of revulsion inspired by the nuns & "home" because the standard for justice and the bar for decency are subjectively defined. I used abortion as my example because the extremes of the issue are well known, but we could just as easily become classified as neanderthals for keeping pets, eating meat, failing to recycle, and any number of other things which today are regarded as normal. Don't get me wrong, I all but weep for those women and children, but I also recognize that humanity's journey up from chaos has been long and I'm certain that we will progress even further. "Progress: being a credit to the race as well as the scourge that will be used to metaphorically whip the present era.


Gotcha.
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Re: Onward Christian Soldiers!

Postby frank - up in grand blanc » Thu Jun 12, 2014 7:37 am

Mad Max wrote:
frank - up in grand blanc wrote:^ my point re: abortion is that we today may be regarded in the future with the same sort of revulsion inspired by the nuns & "home" because the standard for justice and the bar for decency are subjectively defined. I used abortion as my example because the extremes of the issue are well known, but we could just as easily become classified as neanderthals for keeping pets, eating meat, failing to recycle, and any number of other things which today are regarded as normal. Don't get me wrong, I all but weep for those women and children, but I also recognize that humanity's journey up from chaos has been long and I'm certain that we will progress even further. "Progress: being a credit to the race as well as the scourge that will be used to metaphorically whip the present era.


Gotcha.


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