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middle aged female wrote:

RoryKasel wrote:

middle aged female wrote:

RoryKasel wrote:

middle aged female wrote:

RoryKasel wrote:

middle aged female wrote:

RoryKasel wrote:

middle aged female wrote:

Doctor Detroit wrote:I'm cool with people doing whatever they want to do if it doesn't hurt others. I don't judge Jenner, whatever, but if you are offended by a Halloween costume, that's your own problem. Making fun of shit is an important part of the human experience. We make fun of tragedies, we make fun of triumphs, we make fun of attention-seeking personalities that don't agree with their assigned gender and won't get the fuck off our TV and internet.

Don't get me wrong, I am not offended by the Halloween costume; I think it's a hoot and if Jenner put herself out there as a spokesmodel for transgenders, then she better accept that this is one of the outcomes.
I'm just making the point that a guy dressing up as a woman for a hoot is a lot different than someone who believes they were born into the wrong gender body. Call it a mental health issue or that the person was born with the mental wiring to be the opposite sex, they aren't just dressing up because it's cool and fun.

It's clearly a mental health issue and should be treated rather than celebrated. If Bruce decided he was really a Golden Retriever born into the wrong body and started running around with a Frisbee in his mouth and defecating in the yard he wouldn't be hurting anyone either, but he also wouldn't be labeled brave and heroic and given the cover of Dog Fancy.

Do you think homosexuality is a mental disorder too? What about people who are born with two sets of sex organs? Are they allowed to choose which identity they are or do their parents do that? Or the church or the government?

Off topic. Should we throw in the moon landing fact/fiction debate as well? All I'm saying is that Bruce Jenner is a man that dresses up as a woman. Penis aside he also has a Y chromosome. Somewhat related I recently read about a little white boy that insists he used to be a black woman that died in a fire. Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't, maybe his parents should humor him to an extent but with limits as I don't think it would be very healthy to start feeding him a steady diet of pork chops and menthol cigarettes.

If Jenner goes through the rest of the gender reassignment surgery, is he still a guy who dresses up as a woman?

If a male soldier has his junk blown off by an IUD does he suddenly become a woman that dresses up as a man? Bruce will continue to be a man that not only dresses up as a woman but also elected to have his dick turned inside out, or outside in, or whatever.

No, the soldier doesn't become a woman because that is not what he identifies with; he stays a man who probably will get reconstructive surgery. There is no comparison between someone who is fighting for their country and is disfigured and someone who feels he is a woman and purposefully has his penis (and other male sex organs)removed and female ones added (It's about more than a penis).I don't see a transgender person as a hero; the soldier I do.

What about John Bobbit before reattachment? Woman or hero? And do you agree that Bruce shouldn't be hailed as some sort of role model then?

Bobbit had no more say in what happened to him than the soldier in your above scenario and has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Other than that fact that he was a dog and Lorena decided she was tired of his bullshit.
I never said I looked at Jenner as a role model, a hero or a villain; she's just a person who deserves to be happy as do the rest of us. If being transgender makes her happy, it's no skin off my ass.

I don't care what he does either. I originally just pointed out that frank was right and Bruce is indeed a man the dresses up as a woman and now all I'm saying is that if he has surgery he'll be a man with an inverted penis that dresses up as a woman. They can go one further and stuff a couple of ovaries up in him but he'll still be male.

RoryKasel wrote:

middle aged female wrote:

RoryKasel wrote:

middle aged female wrote:

RoryKasel wrote:

middle aged female wrote:

RoryKasel wrote:

middle aged female wrote:

RoryKasel wrote:

middle aged female wrote:

Doctor Detroit wrote:I'm cool with people doing whatever they want to do if it doesn't hurt others. I don't judge Jenner, whatever, but if you are offended by a Halloween costume, that's your own problem. Making fun of shit is an important part of the human experience. We make fun of tragedies, we make fun of triumphs, we make fun of attention-seeking personalities that don't agree with their assigned gender and won't get the fuck off our TV and internet.

Don't get me wrong, I am not offended by the Halloween costume; I think it's a hoot and if Jenner put herself out there as a spokesmodel for transgenders, then she better accept that this is one of the outcomes.
I'm just making the point that a guy dressing up as a woman for a hoot is a lot different than someone who believes they were born into the wrong gender body. Call it a mental health issue or that the person was born with the mental wiring to be the opposite sex, they aren't just dressing up because it's cool and fun.

It's clearly a mental health issue and should be treated rather than celebrated. If Bruce decided he was really a Golden Retriever born into the wrong body and started running around with a Frisbee in his mouth and defecating in the yard he wouldn't be hurting anyone either, but he also wouldn't be labeled brave and heroic and given the cover of Dog Fancy.

Do you think homosexuality is a mental disorder too? What about people who are born with two sets of sex organs? Are they allowed to choose which identity they are or do their parents do that? Or the church or the government?

Off topic. Should we throw in the moon landing fact/fiction debate as well? All I'm saying is that Bruce Jenner is a man that dresses up as a woman. Penis aside he also has a Y chromosome. Somewhat related I recently read about a little white boy that insists he used to be a black woman that died in a fire. Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't, maybe his parents should humor him to an extent but with limits as I don't think it would be very healthy to start feeding him a steady diet of pork chops and menthol cigarettes.

If Jenner goes through the rest of the gender reassignment surgery, is he still a guy who dresses up as a woman?

If a male soldier has his junk blown off by an IUD does he suddenly become a woman that dresses up as a man? Bruce will continue to be a man that not only dresses up as a woman but also elected to have his dick turned inside out, or outside in, or whatever.

No, the soldier doesn't become a woman because that is not what he identifies with; he stays a man who probably will get reconstructive surgery. There is no comparison between someone who is fighting for their country and is disfigured and someone who feels he is a woman and purposefully has his penis (and other male sex organs)removed and female ones added (It's about more than a penis).I don't see a transgender person as a hero; the soldier I do.

What about John Bobbit before reattachment? Woman or hero? And do you agree that Bruce shouldn't be hailed as some sort of role model then?

Bobbit had no more say in what happened to him than the soldier in your above scenario and has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Other than that fact that he was a dog and Lorena decided she was tired of his bullshit.
I never said I looked at Jenner as a role model, a hero or a villain; she's just a person who deserves to be happy as do the rest of us. If being transgender makes her happy, it's no skin off my ass.

I don't care what he does either. I originally just pointed out that frank was right and Bruce is indeed a man the dresses up as a woman and now all I'm saying is that if he has surgery he'll be a man with an inverted penis that dresses up as a woman. They can go one further and stuff a couple of ovaries up in him but he'll still be male.

That's where we disagree; I don't know if she legitimately believes she's a female or not, but I have no reason to disbelieve her any more than I have a reason to disbelieve someone who says they are gay. If Bruce Jenner truly felt like he was born to be a woman, who am I to say he was wrong? If Bruce becoming Caitlin makes her feel complete, I have no way to prove or disprove that completion, so I have to take her word that she was meant to be a woman instead of a man. I can't believe she would make the transition for any other reason; there are certainly easier and less painful ways to get attention. Is it wrong for a blond woman to dye her hair red because she always felt she should have been born a redhead? I know that's an over-simplification, but it's about her feelings, not what I think her feelings SHOULD be.

middle aged female wrote:

RoryKasel wrote:

middle aged female wrote:

RoryKasel wrote:

middle aged female wrote:

RoryKasel wrote:

middle aged female wrote:

RoryKasel wrote:

middle aged female wrote:

RoryKasel wrote:

middle aged female wrote:

Doctor Detroit wrote:I'm cool with people doing whatever they want to do if it doesn't hurt others. I don't judge Jenner, whatever, but if you are offended by a Halloween costume, that's your own problem. Making fun of shit is an important part of the human experience. We make fun of tragedies, we make fun of triumphs, we make fun of attention-seeking personalities that don't agree with their assigned gender and won't get the fuck off our TV and internet.

Don't get me wrong, I am not offended by the Halloween costume; I think it's a hoot and if Jenner put herself out there as a spokesmodel for transgenders, then she better accept that this is one of the outcomes.
I'm just making the point that a guy dressing up as a woman for a hoot is a lot different than someone who believes they were born into the wrong gender body. Call it a mental health issue or that the person was born with the mental wiring to be the opposite sex, they aren't just dressing up because it's cool and fun.

It's clearly a mental health issue and should be treated rather than celebrated. If Bruce decided he was really a Golden Retriever born into the wrong body and started running around with a Frisbee in his mouth and defecating in the yard he wouldn't be hurting anyone either, but he also wouldn't be labeled brave and heroic and given the cover of Dog Fancy.

Do you think homosexuality is a mental disorder too? What about people who are born with two sets of sex organs? Are they allowed to choose which identity they are or do their parents do that? Or the church or the government?

Off topic. Should we throw in the moon landing fact/fiction debate as well? All I'm saying is that Bruce Jenner is a man that dresses up as a woman. Penis aside he also has a Y chromosome. Somewhat related I recently read about a little white boy that insists he used to be a black woman that died in a fire. Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't, maybe his parents should humor him to an extent but with limits as I don't think it would be very healthy to start feeding him a steady diet of pork chops and menthol cigarettes.

If Jenner goes through the rest of the gender reassignment surgery, is he still a guy who dresses up as a woman?

If a male soldier has his junk blown off by an IUD does he suddenly become a woman that dresses up as a man? Bruce will continue to be a man that not only dresses up as a woman but also elected to have his dick turned inside out, or outside in, or whatever.

No, the soldier doesn't become a woman because that is not what he identifies with; he stays a man who probably will get reconstructive surgery. There is no comparison between someone who is fighting for their country and is disfigured and someone who feels he is a woman and purposefully has his penis (and other male sex organs)removed and female ones added (It's about more than a penis).I don't see a transgender person as a hero; the soldier I do.

What about John Bobbit before reattachment? Woman or hero? And do you agree that Bruce shouldn't be hailed as some sort of role model then?

Bobbit had no more say in what happened to him than the soldier in your above scenario and has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Other than that fact that he was a dog and Lorena decided she was tired of his bullshit.
I never said I looked at Jenner as a role model, a hero or a villain; she's just a person who deserves to be happy as do the rest of us. If being transgender makes her happy, it's no skin off my ass.

I don't care what he does either. I originally just pointed out that frank was right and Bruce is indeed a man the dresses up as a woman and now all I'm saying is that if he has surgery he'll be a man with an inverted penis that dresses up as a woman. They can go one further and stuff a couple of ovaries up in him but he'll still be male.

That's where we disagree; I don't know if she legitimately believes she's a female or not, but I have no reason to disbelieve her any more than I have a reason to disbelieve someone who says they are gay. If Bruce Jenner truly felt like he was born to be a woman, who am I to say he was wrong? If Bruce becoming Caitlin makes her feel complete, I have no way to prove or disprove that completion, so I have to take her word that she was meant to be a woman instead of a man. I can't believe she would make the transition for any other reason; there are certainly easier and less painful ways to get attention. Is it wrong for a blond woman to dye her hair red because she always felt she should have been born a redhead? I know that's an over-simplification, but it's about her feelings, not what I think her feelings SHOULD be.

His condition has nothing to do with gays as that's a whole different topic but to use an earlier example would you be as supportive if Bruce decided he would rather be a Golden Retriever? What if he wanted to marry a horse? Where is the line?

RoryKasel wrote:

middle aged female wrote:

RoryKasel wrote:

middle aged female wrote:

RoryKasel wrote:

middle aged female wrote:

RoryKasel wrote:

middle aged female wrote:

RoryKasel wrote:

middle aged female wrote:

RoryKasel wrote:

middle aged female wrote:

Doctor Detroit wrote:I'm cool with people doing whatever they want to do if it doesn't hurt others. I don't judge Jenner, whatever, but if you are offended by a Halloween costume, that's your own problem. Making fun of shit is an important part of the human experience. We make fun of tragedies, we make fun of triumphs, we make fun of attention-seeking personalities that don't agree with their assigned gender and won't get the fuck off our TV and internet.

Don't get me wrong, I am not offended by the Halloween costume; I think it's a hoot and if Jenner put herself out there as a spokesmodel for transgenders, then she better accept that this is one of the outcomes.
I'm just making the point that a guy dressing up as a woman for a hoot is a lot different than someone who believes they were born into the wrong gender body. Call it a mental health issue or that the person was born with the mental wiring to be the opposite sex, they aren't just dressing up because it's cool and fun.

It's clearly a mental health issue and should be treated rather than celebrated. If Bruce decided he was really a Golden Retriever born into the wrong body and started running around with a Frisbee in his mouth and defecating in the yard he wouldn't be hurting anyone either, but he also wouldn't be labeled brave and heroic and given the cover of Dog Fancy.

Do you think homosexuality is a mental disorder too? What about people who are born with two sets of sex organs? Are they allowed to choose which identity they are or do their parents do that? Or the church or the government?

Off topic. Should we throw in the moon landing fact/fiction debate as well? All I'm saying is that Bruce Jenner is a man that dresses up as a woman. Penis aside he also has a Y chromosome. Somewhat related I recently read about a little white boy that insists he used to be a black woman that died in a fire. Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't, maybe his parents should humor him to an extent but with limits as I don't think it would be very healthy to start feeding him a steady diet of pork chops and menthol cigarettes.

If Jenner goes through the rest of the gender reassignment surgery, is he still a guy who dresses up as a woman?

If a male soldier has his junk blown off by an IUD does he suddenly become a woman that dresses up as a man? Bruce will continue to be a man that not only dresses up as a woman but also elected to have his dick turned inside out, or outside in, or whatever.

No, the soldier doesn't become a woman because that is not what he identifies with; he stays a man who probably will get reconstructive surgery. There is no comparison between someone who is fighting for their country and is disfigured and someone who feels he is a woman and purposefully has his penis (and other male sex organs)removed and female ones added (It's about more than a penis).I don't see a transgender person as a hero; the soldier I do.

What about John Bobbit before reattachment? Woman or hero? And do you agree that Bruce shouldn't be hailed as some sort of role model then?

Bobbit had no more say in what happened to him than the soldier in your above scenario and has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Other than that fact that he was a dog and Lorena decided she was tired of his bullshit.
I never said I looked at Jenner as a role model, a hero or a villain; she's just a person who deserves to be happy as do the rest of us. If being transgender makes her happy, it's no skin off my ass.

I don't care what he does either. I originally just pointed out that frank was right and Bruce is indeed a man the dresses up as a woman and now all I'm saying is that if he has surgery he'll be a man with an inverted penis that dresses up as a woman. They can go one further and stuff a couple of ovaries up in him but he'll still be male.

That's where we disagree; I don't know if she legitimately believes she's a female or not, but I have no reason to disbelieve her any more than I have a reason to disbelieve someone who says they are gay. If Bruce Jenner truly felt like he was born to be a woman, who am I to say he was wrong? If Bruce becoming Caitlin makes her feel complete, I have no way to prove or disprove that completion, so I have to take her word that she was meant to be a woman instead of a man. I can't believe she would make the transition for any other reason; there are certainly easier and less painful ways to get attention. Is it wrong for a blond woman to dye her hair red because she always felt she should have been born a redhead? I know that's an over-simplification, but it's about her feelings, not what I think her feelings SHOULD be.

His condition has nothing to do with gays as that's a whole different topic but to use an earlier example would you be as supportive if Bruce decided he would rather be a Golden Retriever? What if he wanted to marry a horse? Where is the line?

The line is as long as he stays in the human race. I would have a problem if he had long floppy ears grafted on and began to bark instead of speak. I do believe one should stick to one's species whether it's identification or sexual preference.
And, no, you are correct; being gay is entirely different than being transgender. It was a bad comparison

middle aged female wrote:

RoryKasel wrote:

middle aged female wrote:

RoryKasel wrote:

middle aged female wrote:

RoryKasel wrote:

middle aged female wrote:

RoryKasel wrote:

middle aged female wrote:

RoryKasel wrote:

middle aged female wrote:

RoryKasel wrote:

middle aged female wrote:

Doctor Detroit wrote:I'm cool with people doing whatever they want to do if it doesn't hurt others. I don't judge Jenner, whatever, but if you are offended by a Halloween costume, that's your own problem. Making fun of shit is an important part of the human experience. We make fun of tragedies, we make fun of triumphs, we make fun of attention-seeking personalities that don't agree with their assigned gender and won't get the fuck off our TV and internet.

Don't get me wrong, I am not offended by the Halloween costume; I think it's a hoot and if Jenner put herself out there as a spokesmodel for transgenders, then she better accept that this is one of the outcomes.
I'm just making the point that a guy dressing up as a woman for a hoot is a lot different than someone who believes they were born into the wrong gender body. Call it a mental health issue or that the person was born with the mental wiring to be the opposite sex, they aren't just dressing up because it's cool and fun.

It's clearly a mental health issue and should be treated rather than celebrated. If Bruce decided he was really a Golden Retriever born into the wrong body and started running around with a Frisbee in his mouth and defecating in the yard he wouldn't be hurting anyone either, but he also wouldn't be labeled brave and heroic and given the cover of Dog Fancy.

Do you think homosexuality is a mental disorder too? What about people who are born with two sets of sex organs? Are they allowed to choose which identity they are or do their parents do that? Or the church or the government?

Off topic. Should we throw in the moon landing fact/fiction debate as well? All I'm saying is that Bruce Jenner is a man that dresses up as a woman. Penis aside he also has a Y chromosome. Somewhat related I recently read about a little white boy that insists he used to be a black woman that died in a fire. Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't, maybe his parents should humor him to an extent but with limits as I don't think it would be very healthy to start feeding him a steady diet of pork chops and menthol cigarettes.

If Jenner goes through the rest of the gender reassignment surgery, is he still a guy who dresses up as a woman?

If a male soldier has his junk blown off by an IUD does he suddenly become a woman that dresses up as a man? Bruce will continue to be a man that not only dresses up as a woman but also elected to have his dick turned inside out, or outside in, or whatever.

No, the soldier doesn't become a woman because that is not what he identifies with; he stays a man who probably will get reconstructive surgery. There is no comparison between someone who is fighting for their country and is disfigured and someone who feels he is a woman and purposefully has his penis (and other male sex organs)removed and female ones added (It's about more than a penis).I don't see a transgender person as a hero; the soldier I do.

What about John Bobbit before reattachment? Woman or hero? And do you agree that Bruce shouldn't be hailed as some sort of role model then?

Bobbit had no more say in what happened to him than the soldier in your above scenario and has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Other than that fact that he was a dog and Lorena decided she was tired of his bullshit.
I never said I looked at Jenner as a role model, a hero or a villain; she's just a person who deserves to be happy as do the rest of us. If being transgender makes her happy, it's no skin off my ass.

I don't care what he does either. I originally just pointed out that frank was right and Bruce is indeed a man the dresses up as a woman and now all I'm saying is that if he has surgery he'll be a man with an inverted penis that dresses up as a woman. They can go one further and stuff a couple of ovaries up in him but he'll still be male.

That's where we disagree; I don't know if she legitimately believes she's a female or not, but I have no reason to disbelieve her any more than I have a reason to disbelieve someone who says they are gay. If Bruce Jenner truly felt like he was born to be a woman, who am I to say he was wrong? If Bruce becoming Caitlin makes her feel complete, I have no way to prove or disprove that completion, so I have to take her word that she was meant to be a woman instead of a man. I can't believe she would make the transition for any other reason; there are certainly easier and less painful ways to get attention. Is it wrong for a blond woman to dye her hair red because she always felt she should have been born a redhead? I know that's an over-simplification, but it's about her feelings, not what I think her feelings SHOULD be.

His condition has nothing to do with gays as that's a whole different topic but to use an earlier example would you be as supportive if Bruce decided he would rather be a Golden Retriever? What if he wanted to marry a horse? Where is the line?

The line is as long as he stays in the human race. I would have a problem if he had long floppy ears grafted on and began to bark instead of speak. I do believe one should stick to one's species whether it's identification or sexual preference.
And, no, you are correct; being gay is entirely different than being transgender. It was a bad comparison

So why the cheers for Bruce but jeers for Rachel Dolezal? She was universally ridiculed, not put on the cover of Ebony.

RoryKasel wrote:

middle aged female wrote:

RoryKasel wrote:

middle aged female wrote:

RoryKasel wrote:

middle aged female wrote:

RoryKasel wrote:

middle aged female wrote:

RoryKasel wrote:

middle aged female wrote:

RoryKasel wrote:

middle aged female wrote:

RoryKasel wrote:

middle aged female wrote:

Doctor Detroit wrote:I'm cool with people doing whatever they want to do if it doesn't hurt others. I don't judge Jenner, whatever, but if you are offended by a Halloween costume, that's your own problem. Making fun of shit is an important part of the human experience. We make fun of tragedies, we make fun of triumphs, we make fun of attention-seeking personalities that don't agree with their assigned gender and won't get the fuck off our TV and internet.

Don't get me wrong, I am not offended by the Halloween costume; I think it's a hoot and if Jenner put herself out there as a spokesmodel for transgenders, then she better accept that this is one of the outcomes.
I'm just making the point that a guy dressing up as a woman for a hoot is a lot different than someone who believes they were born into the wrong gender body. Call it a mental health issue or that the person was born with the mental wiring to be the opposite sex, they aren't just dressing up because it's cool and fun.

It's clearly a mental health issue and should be treated rather than celebrated. If Bruce decided he was really a Golden Retriever born into the wrong body and started running around with a Frisbee in his mouth and defecating in the yard he wouldn't be hurting anyone either, but he also wouldn't be labeled brave and heroic and given the cover of Dog Fancy.

Do you think homosexuality is a mental disorder too? What about people who are born with two sets of sex organs? Are they allowed to choose which identity they are or do their parents do that? Or the church or the government?

Off topic. Should we throw in the moon landing fact/fiction debate as well? All I'm saying is that Bruce Jenner is a man that dresses up as a woman. Penis aside he also has a Y chromosome. Somewhat related I recently read about a little white boy that insists he used to be a black woman that died in a fire. Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't, maybe his parents should humor him to an extent but with limits as I don't think it would be very healthy to start feeding him a steady diet of pork chops and menthol cigarettes.

If Jenner goes through the rest of the gender reassignment surgery, is he still a guy who dresses up as a woman?

If a male soldier has his junk blown off by an IUD does he suddenly become a woman that dresses up as a man? Bruce will continue to be a man that not only dresses up as a woman but also elected to have his dick turned inside out, or outside in, or whatever.

No, the soldier doesn't become a woman because that is not what he identifies with; he stays a man who probably will get reconstructive surgery. There is no comparison between someone who is fighting for their country and is disfigured and someone who feels he is a woman and purposefully has his penis (and other male sex organs)removed and female ones added (It's about more than a penis).I don't see a transgender person as a hero; the soldier I do.

What about John Bobbit before reattachment? Woman or hero? And do you agree that Bruce shouldn't be hailed as some sort of role model then?

Bobbit had no more say in what happened to him than the soldier in your above scenario and has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Other than that fact that he was a dog and Lorena decided she was tired of his bullshit.
I never said I looked at Jenner as a role model, a hero or a villain; she's just a person who deserves to be happy as do the rest of us. If being transgender makes her happy, it's no skin off my ass.

I don't care what he does either. I originally just pointed out that frank was right and Bruce is indeed a man the dresses up as a woman and now all I'm saying is that if he has surgery he'll be a man with an inverted penis that dresses up as a woman. They can go one further and stuff a couple of ovaries up in him but he'll still be male.

That's where we disagree; I don't know if she legitimately believes she's a female or not, but I have no reason to disbelieve her any more than I have a reason to disbelieve someone who says they are gay. If Bruce Jenner truly felt like he was born to be a woman, who am I to say he was wrong? If Bruce becoming Caitlin makes her feel complete, I have no way to prove or disprove that completion, so I have to take her word that she was meant to be a woman instead of a man. I can't believe she would make the transition for any other reason; there are certainly easier and less painful ways to get attention. Is it wrong for a blond woman to dye her hair red because she always felt she should have been born a redhead? I know that's an over-simplification, but it's about her feelings, not what I think her feelings SHOULD be.

His condition has nothing to do with gays as that's a whole different topic but to use an earlier example would you be as supportive if Bruce decided he would rather be a Golden Retriever? What if he wanted to marry a horse? Where is the line?

The line is as long as he stays in the human race. I would have a problem if he had long floppy ears grafted on and began to bark instead of speak. I do believe one should stick to one's species whether it's identification or sexual preference.
And, no, you are correct; being gay is entirely different than being transgender. It was a bad comparison

So why the cheers for Bruce but jeers for Rachel Dolezal? She was universally ridiculed, not put on the cover of Ebony.

I never jeered at her; race is largely a false concept anyway. Most people would be absolutely shocked if they had their DNA run and they saw what their actual ethic backgrounds include. We pretty much all descend from the same area of the earth and mutated because of climate and other outside factors. There isn't a lot of biology behind race.
I truthfully don't understand how Jenner became a cultural hero whereas other transgenders did not, but, to me, that doesn't make the belief that Bruce is Caitlin any less valid. There is nothing heroic about sex-change surgery beyond enduring the pain, much like it wouldn't be heroic to have a hysterectomy. I guess it takes a certain amount of personal integrity to go ahead and have a sex-change because it's what you believe yourself to be but I dont' see it as herosim. We use that term far to liberally in our society anyway. We call people heroes for the stupidest reasons and real heroes go unsung

I caught a bit on "The View" while on vacation earlier this month that I found fascinating.

Raven Simone is lesbian, and she took issue with Jenner's attempts to be a champion for the LGBTQ community on his show.

Raven's belief is that it's "too soon" for Jenner to be doing that, because he hasn't been around long enough to really know the struggle.

It could have been even better if there had been someone on the set really willing to challenge Raven, but they all clucked along in semi-approval.

http://www.thewrap.com/the-views-raven- ... -it-first/

middle aged female wrote:The line is as long as he stays in the human race. I would have a problem if he had long floppy ears grafted on and began to bark instead of speak. I do believe one should stick to one's species whether it's identification or sexual preference.
And, no, you are correct; being gay is entirely different than being transgender. It was a bad comparison

I think that makes you, definitively, a racist. A human racist.

thunderstruck wrote:

middle aged female wrote:The line is as long as he stays in the human race. I would have a problem if he had long floppy ears grafted on and began to bark instead of speak. I do believe one should stick to one's species whether it's identification or sexual preference.
And, no, you are correct; being gay is entirely different than being transgender. It was a bad comparison

I think that makes you, definitively, a racist. A human racist.

I don't know how I live with myself

middle aged female wrote:

thunderstruck wrote:

middle aged female wrote:The line is as long as he stays in the human race. I would have a problem if he had long floppy ears grafted on and began to bark instead of speak. I do believe one should stick to one's species whether it's identification or sexual preference.
And, no, you are correct; being gay is entirely different than being transgender. It was a bad comparison

I think that makes you, definitively, a racist. A human racist.

I don't know how I live with myself

A humanist.

frank - up in grand blanc wrote:

Caitlyn Jenner Halloween Costume Sparks Internet Outrage: ‘Disgraceful,’ ‘Transphobic’

http://www.thewrap.com/caitlyn-jenner-halloween-costume-sparks-internet-outrage-disgraceful-transphobic/

I don't really do Halloween, unless you consider standing in the driveway with other dads drinking beers "doin' Halloween." But if I did put this costume on the list of possibilities. Good grief, why all the fuss? Men dress as women for Halloween. People dress as priests with little boys. Osama Bin Laden was big for a while. Pimps have been a top choice for a while. A guy dressing as a guy who is dressing as a woman? Brilliant.

The idea of a guy going as far as wearing women's clothes in order to express disapproval of the transgender phenomena is pretty funny.

would you be as supportive if Bruce decided he would rather be a Golden Retriever? What if he wanted to marry a horse? Where is the line?

The line is when you start asking dumbass questions.

Doctor Detroit wrote:

would you be as supportive if Bruce decided he would rather be a Golden Retriever? What if he wanted to marry a horse? Where is the line?

The line is when you start asking dumbass questions.

Both are examples of abnormal behavior such as what Bruce is displaying and all three scenarios were likely showcased on the Jerry Springer show at some point.

In the first place I don't have a problem with mocking Bruce/Caitlyn/whomever. The declaration (made by others outside of the forum) that Caitlyn Jenner is off-limits because to do otherwise is heinous, mean, contemptuous of the trans community etc. is a convenient disregard of societal conventions. Jenner may have felt wronged in having been dealt a bad hand in genetic poker, but deciding to make a spectacle of the transformation elevates the inherent taste of all who are now making sport. Hunting down Sarah Palin and bagging on her for ignorance of foreign policy is a shitty thing to do, but when she put herself into the limelight as a candidate for VP she became fair game. Same for Jenner.

Kind of unrelated: the accolades thrown up for Jenner's "bravery" in going public are at least a bit misplaced, IMO. This is a Hollywood personality, meaning that almost any outcome in the public eye isn't going to leave much of a mark. To me the courageous transgender person is the one that any one of us might know, like the guy at my buddy's work who went away for an extended vacation and returned as a woman. That engineer had little choice but to return to a spot in a workplace where he/she'd never be free from the stares and questions and jokes about Steve becoming Stephanie. Trying to go on with a regular life after doing something like this must be a shitload more complicated and trying than it is for a reality TV star and person of considerable means. (funny story about "Stephanie." When "Steve" he'd been on the shop's men's golf league. Post-op she asked if she could remain on the league. "Uh, sure, if you like," to which she replied "so I'll be able to hit from the women's tee?" It was a joke, everyone roared, and the reply was "fuck no." Steve was a giant of a man who could crush a ball, and thus was no less of a giant as a woman)

Something else YOU might expect to hear: a double post by Frank. Dangit